tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post4502766561547423154..comments2007-04-24T11:19:24.923-07:00Comments on Splintered Sunrise: West Belfast candidates address broad massessplinteredsunrisehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11512033657370443477noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-4160970100195433822007-03-06T07:44:00.000-08:002007-03-06T07:44:00.000-08:00In so far as the left are now indifferent to colon...<I>In so far as the left are now indifferent to colonialism and partition</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I don't think they are: I think that they are concentrating on those issues that they think they can actually do something about - something they are often enjoined to do by other commentators on the left.<BR/><BR/>Now they may be wrong to do so and it may also be true that "don't mention the border" is possibly a little more prevalent an approach on the left than it should be. But I very much doubt that you'll find many leftists who disagree that the practical consequences of Partition, both politically and in everyday life, are profund and damaging.ejhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01582272075999298935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-43669473105594369842007-03-06T07:15:00.000-08:002007-03-06T07:15:00.000-08:00BTW - I was inspired by this discussion to post ab...BTW - I was inspired by this discussion to post about the impact of the Irish war on the Brit left<BR/>http://socialistunity.blogspot.com/2007/03/irish-war-and-british-left.htmlANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-89662255316817790802007-03-06T07:14:00.000-08:002007-03-06T07:14:00.000-08:00Ok ejhI will put my hands up that you have got me ...Ok ejh<BR/><BR/>I will put my hands up that you have got me there.<BR/><BR/>In so far as the left are now indifferent to colonialism and partition it is not the same as actually rejoicing in bigotry,<BR/><BR/>and I accept that guilt by amagamatioon is a filthy stalinist trick.<BR/><BR/>However, there is another sense that I am still right, becasue if you argue that class unity over water charges is more importent than the national question and oppression, then you are saying that oppressed people should unite with workinig class DUP voters who might indeed have a sash and a bowler in their closet, and Catholic workers shouldn't object to that, otherwise they are endangering class unity.<BR/><BR/>Without mentioning the national question then class unity can only be achieved on terms acceptable to the unionists.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-16904283322447698442007-03-06T06:29:00.000-08:002007-03-06T06:29:00.000-08:00Then for the left to say that those under the heel...<I>Then for the left to say that those under the heel of Orange bigotry should not organise against the colonial status - in the interst of class unity with protestnat workers who vote DUP - is actually saying that the oppressed should put up with their lot. </I><BR/><BR/>Well, it's not, and even if it were it's still not the same thing (or even close) as the "Croppies Lie Down" chaps, unless the first set have been observed parading through Catholic areas with drums and bowler hats.<BR/><BR/>I say so because it's my opinion that too much leftwing commentary, on the ideas of leftists with whom they differ, consists of the manoeuvre "they're saying <I>x</I> which means they might as well be saying <I>y</I>". I don't like it much: it's a recipe for distortion and a subsequent swapping of accusations and recriminations. Which is fun for some the spectators, but those spectators tend to be few in number as a result.ejhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01582272075999298935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-46919283529506706972007-03-06T05:52:00.000-08:002007-03-06T05:52:00.000-08:00Yes, as far as I can see the only people even ment...Yes, as far as I can see the only people even mentioning imperialism are RSF, and I have some big massive reservations about them.<BR/><BR/>Actually, it's hard to express just how bad the PBP leaflet is. But there's an aspect I see I missed, which has to do with the SWP's chameleon quality of blending in to their environment. In West Belfast that means adapting to the Shinners - but that doesn't mean, as our irritable chum from the SP might think, that they become mad republicans. What the PBP literature adapts to is another element of Shinner politics, which is "Gissa grant".<BR/><BR/>So it's not just that there are a lot of bread and butter issues referenced, but the solution to all of them is to demand grants from the Brits. Anti-social behaviour? Women's oppression? Climate change? All these can be sorted with a grant.<BR/><BR/>A while back there was a small wave of teen suicides in West Belfast. Very sad, but as far as I could see it was just one of those things. But there were some enterprising Shinners who came up with the slogan Make Suicide History, and reckoned they could save depressed teens if only they got a grant. That's what the left is competing with.splinteredsunrisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512033657370443477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-67589987261320797742007-03-06T05:18:00.000-08:002007-03-06T05:18:00.000-08:00You see ejh, I think it does amount to the same th...You see ejh, I think it does amount to the same thing, in the context of the North actually being a colony, and sectarian discrimination being a daily reality.<BR/><BR/>Then for the left to say that those under the heel of Orange bigotry should not organise against the colonial status - in the interst of class unity with protestnat workers who vote DUP - is actually saying that the oppressed should put up with their lot.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-77107730718413228772007-03-06T05:05:00.000-08:002007-03-06T05:05:00.000-08:00I don't think Jean Marie would be that happy in th...I don't think Jean Marie would be that happy in the DUP as he is a Catholic, and in fact didn't he thwack paisley once.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-4806880343196269292007-03-06T03:39:00.000-08:002007-03-06T03:39:00.000-08:00There's always been this space on the left in the ...There's always been this space on the left in the north of Ireland that used to be filled by the Workers Party and before that the NILP. A lot of people believe that if you ignore imperialism hard enough it stops being a problem. That's always been the approach of the union bureaucracy. It also suited a fair number of workers in mixed workplaces. <BR/><BR/>But what's convenient for liberals and bureaucrats shouldn't really determine the programmes of socialist organisations. The north remains a colony. The DUP, an organisation which Jean-Marie Le Pen would be happy in is likely to become the party of government and the Irish left is mute on the imperialist triumph that made it possible.<BR/>The economic demands of the various left candidates are fine. Any liberal could back those but there needs to be an attempt at political explanation and leadership too. That's what's missing.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13081564039331261787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-64010502931648615882007-03-06T02:38:00.000-08:002007-03-06T02:38:00.000-08:00Well, it doesn't actually amount to the same thing...Well, it doesn't <I>actually</I> amount to the same thing, does it?ejhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01582272075999298935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-49083457239251326192007-03-06T01:07:00.000-08:002007-03-06T01:07:00.000-08:00I'm not sure it is rhetorical Liam, in the sense t...I'm not sure it is rhetorical Liam, in the sense that it does demand an answer.<BR/><BR/>From the perspective of an Englishman on the other side of the Irish Sea it looks like this election is about getting a mandate for the reestablishment of Stormont based upon the complete surrender of the chuckies to the Unionists, creating a fiction that the national question will somehow be solved if we all ignore it. Or that a united ireland will come about in the same way that the Labour party will one day bring about socialism.<BR/><BR/>Not persnally having seen the electoral material, but it sounds like the people before profit literature says nothing about the British occupation of the 6 counties. From where I sit, pretending that the national question doesn't exist is a form of unionism by the back door, becasue bring workers togther only on the basis of not paying water charges is to accept that the class-unity should not be jeopardised by bringing up divisive issues like the British occupation.<BR/><BR/>So the SWP and SP can be as radical as they like in the privacy of their own bedrooms and back room meetings, but on the key issue over which protestant workers will vote UUP or DUP they are silent.<BR/><BR/>Isn't that saying that nationalists and Crepublicans should abandon the demand for a 32 county republic in order to achieve class unity over the water charges?<BR/><BR/>Which may sound a bit more radical than "Croppie Lie down", but amounts to the same thing?ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-43200747438240810962007-03-06T00:13:00.000-08:002007-03-06T00:13:00.000-08:00As is that, surely?As is that, surely?ejhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01582272075999298935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6920787141907842423.post-44263492312349556242007-03-05T14:41:00.000-08:002007-03-05T14:41:00.000-08:00"how are the representatives of the left more radi..."how are the representatives of the left more radical than those of Trimble Unionism?" That's a rhetorical question isn't it?Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13081564039331261787noreply@blogger.com